Today represents a monumental, albeit posthumous, victory for Steve Thoburn. Steve Thoburn was a grocer in England who was killed by the stupidity of the European Union’s fascist ideals, and disregard for human freedoms. Mr. Thoburn was arrested in 2000 for the horrendous crime of selling bananas by the pound, instead of by the kilogram. On hearing in 2004 that the appeal of his conviction was rejected, Mr. Thoburn died of a heart attack at the age of 39. Today, however, the EU has decided in their “infinite wisdom” that perhaps people using other systems of measure isn’t equivalent to murder or rape, and has decided to allow the British and Irish to keep imperial measures.
Finally Mr. Thoburn, and the many other “metric martyrs” like him are no longer criminals just because they decided to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes, used an ounce of sense, or had a pint of beer. One wonders what rights the EU will crack down on now that they have allowed this minor freedom. Surely some aspect of life needs to be further restricted so that Europeans don’t get too free. Heaven forbid they be allowed to make their own choices!
Unfortunately there are some casualties on the side of the imperial measure. It will still be illegal, for example, to use acres as a measurement of land. But of course, what is personal choice along side wrong headed European stupidity? I mean, it isn’t as if we should let people choose what measures they use, is it? Think of the children! If your children grow up eating apples by a measurement their parents choose, instead of the state mandated kilogram, they may actually begin thinking personal freedoms, choice, and liberty are important. We certainly can’t have that!
All joking aside, this issue demonstrates a fundamental problem with the European mindset, one that is dooming them to irrelevancy, or worse yet, extinction. Why should the government even attempt to enforce a certain set of measures on private businesses? Shouldn’t the market select the best measure? If Paul’s English Grocer is selling his goods in an obscure measure that no one understands, while Snooty French Boutique is selling them in a more commonly used metric, I would bet Snooty’s would get more business, all things held constant. People will work in measurement system of their choosing. There is no need to force it to be one system or another.
But then again, this is the unfortunate difference between Europe and the real world. In the real world personal freedom, liberty and human dignity are valued. In Europe the class system, nanny states, and collective stupidity reign supreme.
-Angry Midwesterner
The 12 Angry Men Blog 
September 11, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Excuse Me.
America ceased to be the land of the free ages ago. When I read of workers being humiliated by employers, and that US employees lose their constitutional rights while on employer’s premises, of workers fired for telling the employer of security problems, of Adobe getting a programmer jailed because he pointed out their software protection had holes in and the company making voting machines tried to get the adademic sacked who poinetd out how easy they were to hack.
I suspect Blacks, Puerto Ricans and others in the US would have other ideas about human dignity.
Hey, I said all that without mentioning Guantanamo Bay
Europe is, according to my sources, becoming more and more like a police state every day. I understand that is a result of pressure from the USA. There has been a dramatic loss of civil liberties here in the last ten years. As always we are following the USA.
The European union is a fantastic thing of which I approve. I just hope the US doesn’t keep trying to ruin it.
But the class system is almost dead in Europe – I think it died years ago myself, and the rule of collective stupidity is not confined to any one country. It seems the electorate in any democratic country prefer to elect genial morons.
September 11, 2007 at 2:43 pm
America ceased to be the land of the free ages ago
Really? Care to cite some examples and provide links supporting these examples? I’ll agree that under Bush & Co., some marginal civil liberties have been trampled, but we’re fighting and changing those back.
But regardless of that, most of the things you mention here, such as “humiliated by employers”… I’m not sure what that even *means*, but it certainly doesn’t sound like the gov’t crushing the rights of others.
We’re still very much “land of the free”.
Europe is, according to my sources, becoming more and more like a police state every day. I understand that is a result of pressure from the USA.
No, Europe is doing it just fine by themselves, and with public outcry from the states whenever they do so. It isn’t our fault the European governments are awful. It’s the fault of the Europeans.
The European union is a fantastic thing of which I approve. I just hope the US doesn’t keep trying to ruin it.
We’ve never tried in the first place. The EU is running itself (and its population) into the ground just fine without any help at all. It’s a shame they can’t govern themselves effectively is all.
But the class system is almost dead in Europe – I think it died years ago myself
All of my friends from the UK would vehemently disagree with you on this point, they all complain about the class system on a regular basis.
September 11, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Oh no! The eventual Ugly American post where we overreact to a small thing in another country (this is like one school district, or school, suspending some kid for wearing an off-putting t-shirt and some TV talking head going ape shit as it means the end of civilization – either because of the school trampling on the kid’s rights or because ALL our schools are cesspools and this is just one example) then it ignores all the bureacratic crap (not even mentioning Herr Cheney) that goes on here and compares the other country’s system unfavorably. Don’t have to be an America hater to see that argument won’t win ya many converts. Pound vs Kilos? Running out of topics? 🙂
“In the real world personal freedom, liberty and human dignity are valued.”
People are writing books and dissertations on the irony of the statement. LOL
September 11, 2007 at 5:22 pm
BTW:
“Shouldn’t the market select the best measure?”
You’re the stat guy. Any idea the cost of converting between the two? i.e. If all the countries in the EU used the same currency, weights and measures, etc… vs what it costs now?
September 11, 2007 at 5:57 pm
this is like one school district, or school, suspending some kid for wearing an off-putting t-shirt
Actually that isn’t what this is like at all. This is like if a kid wore an off-putting t-shirt to school, and then was arrested on federal charges, then convicted after years of trials and retrials as the courts constantly trampled his rights.
If that did happen in this country, I sure would hope the journalists would make a big deal out of it, because it would indeed be a big deal.
then it ignores all the bureacratic crap (not even mentioning Herr Cheney) that goes on here
Sure, we have bureaucratic crap here, but despite going nearly 8 years under a bunch of thugs who hate freedom, our rights are still intact. I’d call that a win for the American system.
You’re the stat guy. Any idea the cost of converting between the two? i.e. If all the countries in the EU used the same currency, weights and measures, etc… vs what it costs now?
The costs don’t matter. A multinational group has no right to dictate common usage in a country.
September 11, 2007 at 6:20 pm
“our rights are still intact”
You didn’t get today’s memo? 🙂
“The costs don’t matter. A multinational group has no right to dictate common usage in a country.”
Why, that’s almost French thinking there buddy and we don’t take to that round these here parts!
Could that also be adjusted to state’s rights in the US? At what level do you see acceptable oversight? My point was that you took an obscure set of events, albeit important to those involved – although I would like to see that facts that the gentleman died over this – but still a rare case. Same with the t-shirt. Anytime you have ‘globalization’ there will be winners and losers. If you believe in it, you have to take that into account.
September 11, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Why, that’s almost French thinking there buddy and we don’t take to that round these here parts!
Actually it’s more Southern/Libertarian.
Could that also be adjusted to state’s rights in the US?
Definitely. I’m a huge advocate of state’s rights.
At what level do you see acceptable oversight?
Difficult question, one to be further explored in the future. I’d say a much lower level than even exists in the US today. Cut the feds out of most things, and cut multinational alliances out entirely.
Anytime you have ‘globalization’ there will be winners and losers. If you believe in it, you have to take that into account.
I definitely don’t believe in it, especially if it comes at a cost of personal liberties.
September 12, 2007 at 10:50 am
The larger issue (or at least the one that glared out at me when I first read this) seems to be getting lost in this conversation. What right, what ‘moral’ right does a government, any government (be it village, town, city, county, state, national, or international) have to dictate the unit of measure a business will use? Sure they may only have one official standard of measure, and if a business wishes to dispense their product using that measurement they must abide by the regulations established, as well as be subject to official verification (such as the pumps at the gas station).
However if a business decides to use a non-standard unit of measure, and is not attempting false marketing of that measure (such as calling a liter, a gallon), then what right can any government have to regulate that?!?!?
The only body of people that the owner has to answer to for the decision are the customers. If someone tries to sell gasoline by the liter I’d imagine that most people would steer clear due to the fact that they would rather not go thru the hassle of calculating the conversion to comparing quantity/cost. Not to mention they might not trust it if the government was not certifying pumps for liters.
The free market, not legislation should be, can be the only thing that has a right to govern a business’s choice in a matter such as this.
September 12, 2007 at 2:52 pm
AFL wrote: ###The free market, not legislation should be, can be the only thing that has a right to govern a business’s choice in a matter such as this.###
Wow, I totally disagree. (I also think AM is being a hypocrite on this given his raging support for government bans of other things in the past, but I don’t want to enter into a logic torturing contest since I have better things to do.)
IMO standardized weights and measures is as good a case for “interstate commerce” as it gets. Confusing and non-standard units are historically a major barrier to trade and a major source of fraud. Enforcing standards is one of the best “neutral” market-supporting things a government can do, along with maintaining a solid civil law system. (See your Adam Smith.)
While I won’t defend the bureaucratic heavy hand that seems to accompany a lot of EU decisions these days, I think standard weights and measures make damn good sense. I think, for instance, that “pint” could be the sales unit and, so long as pint glasses had the appropriate metric equivalents on them (which most I’ve seen do) the Eurocrats could be satisfied. Probably not given their usual tendencies, but one would think it should be enough. I’ll note that no one held a gun to the heads of Ireland and the UK to join the EU—they signed the treaty, which clearly spelled out the metric issue.
As to the guy dying of a heart attack, I suspect this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. He must have had something else really wrong since, while not unheard of, 39 year old men aren’t high on the list of candidates for dropping dead of myocardial infarction after suffering a life disappointment…. In short, he died of a broken heart after being told he couldn’t use pint glasses.
I call this one a “Jumping the Shark” moment and hope AM will generate something better in the future. Happy Days continued for several seasons after the shark was jumped, after all. 🙂
September 12, 2007 at 2:53 pm
AM wrote: ###Actually that isn’t what this is like at all. This is like if a kid wore an off-putting t-shirt to school, and then was arrested on federal charges, then convicted after years of trials and retrials as the courts constantly trampled his rights. If that did happen in this country, I sure would hope the journalists would make a big deal out of it, because it would indeed be a big deal.###
“Bong Hits For Jesus” made it to the Supreme Court. Next?
September 12, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I also think AM is being a hypocrite on this given his raging support for government bans of other things in the past
Only because you don’t understand the difference between state/local government and federal/alliance level government. I support state and local bans on smoking, but not a federal ban because I am a large believer in states rights.
If England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland wanted to ban non-metric measures, more power to them. But the EU has no right to do so.
“Bong Hits For Jesus” made it to the Supreme Court. Next?
And isn’t relevant at all. The student was never charged with state or federal crimes. The student was simply disciplined by his school board and chose to persue the matter to the supreme court. He had a right to continue the process himself, but was never charged with any crimes what so ever, which is the exact distinction I made in my comment. The only thing at stake in these trials was whether or not the suspension applied by the school would be removed, and whether the kid in question would receive monetary damages from the principle.
Really MPA, I’m surprised you can’t tell the difference between a civil rights lawsuit and a criminal case…
September 13, 2007 at 10:18 am
MPA I feel that you do not understand what I was saying. I am all for standards of measure and the subsequent trade boost they deliver. However that does not mean that a government has any right to force those standards usage. They have every right to withhold use of the name and their certification of the unit.
Such that if I was owner of a bar and wanted to serve my drinks in some non standard unit of measure that I felt like calling “big ass jug” then any government at any level has no moral right to say otherwise so long as I am being clear and honest to my customers that this unit is not a pint, a liter, etc etc. What will probably happen is that I will lose business, but that should be my choice, not government mandate.
Now if you want to argue about the government assigned monopolies such as the utilities, then you have a point. I sure as hell can’t do much about it if the power company stops measuring by the kilowatt hour. Perhaps also agreed for medical usage simply for the issue of safety. Yet for a nice cold beer….come on get serious!
September 13, 2007 at 12:37 pm
###MPA I feel that you do not understand what I was saying. ###
I think we were talking past each other. I was also responding to AM more but forgot to put a quote in.
“Big Ass Jug” seems fine to me so long as a customer could, if HE wanted, find out what “Big Ass Jug” was in standard units. As I said, selling beer in Imperial pints where the mL equivalent is printed on the bottom of the glass (as it is on most such glasses I’ve seen) should be sufficient. Bureaucrats will, of course, take things too far, but as the “Bong Hits for Jesus” proves, we have plenty such cornholers here as well.
September 13, 2007 at 12:50 pm
###Really MPA, I’m surprised you can’t tell the difference between a civil rights lawsuit and a criminal case…###
Yes, having gone back and read the original citation, I’d agree that there’s no reason for this to have been a criminal case. Selling under Imperial units so long as a metric scale is available seems fine to me and criminal prosecution seems excessive. However, as I said, no one put a gun to the collective head of the UK to join the EU.
But we are not immune. Criminal prosecution in the infamous Marcus Dixon case (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4081/is_200403/ai_n9364176), where a law designed for adult sexual predators was applied to a teenager is a good example. In other words: Glass houses… stones… don’t throw ’em.
I disagree with your states’ rights stand and US triumphalism but that’s for another day….
September 13, 2007 at 5:17 pm
I agree about the UK and the EU, but I think they’re having buyer’s remorse. They didn’t realize how fascist and anti-freedom most of the EU was.
As for Marcus Dixon… age of consent is age of consent. He was legally an adult, the rule may seem arbitrary, but all are, and it’s a pretty good one, not an issue of choice of measurement, but just that minors can’t properly consent.
And while we may have a few windows, our house is definitely not glass.
September 13, 2007 at 6:13 pm
###I agree about the UK and the EU, but I think they’re having buyer’s remorse. They didn’t realize how fascist and anti-freedom most of the EU was.###
I’m really hesitant to bust with the f-word, i.e., fascist. Overly bureaucratic I’ll definitely buy.
###As for Marcus Dixon… age of consent is age of consent. He was legally an adult, the rule may seem arbitrary, but all are, and it’s a pretty good one, not an issue of choice of measurement, but just that minors can’t properly consent.###
He certainly fell in the exclusionary zone of the law in question, where the judge could have knocked it down to a misdemeanor. I’m fairly certain that if Marcus Dixon wasn’t black he wouldn’t have had the book thrown at him… it would have been a “boys will be boys” and that’s that.
###And while we may have a few windows, our house is definitely not glass.###
What, do you think we lack Kafka-esque bureaucracies that ruin people’s lives on a daily basis? What do you call insurance companies?
October 3, 2007 at 8:22 am
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