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	<title>Comments on: Simple Math: Why Not To Buy a Hybrid</title>
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	<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/</link>
	<description>Sermo humanus per verba irata</description>
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		<title>By: Manly Automotive Economics: Save your money for steak and bacon &#171; The 12 Angry Men Blog</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9651</link>
		<dc:creator>Manly Automotive Economics: Save your money for steak and bacon &#171; The 12 Angry Men Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9651</guid>
		<description>[...] has been towards hybrid cars for their vaunted mpg ratings. As we&#8217;ve covered here before with proper hard numbers analysis, the overall money-in-your-pocket savings is questionable, since putting two engines in a car is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has been towards hybrid cars for their vaunted mpg ratings. As we&#8217;ve covered here before with proper hard numbers analysis, the overall money-in-your-pocket savings is questionable, since putting two engines in a car is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Continuing the Dialogue: The Angry Men on Hybrids &#171; The 12 Angry Men Blog</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9225</link>
		<dc:creator>Continuing the Dialogue: The Angry Men on Hybrids &#171; The 12 Angry Men Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9225</guid>
		<description>[...] Posted by Angry New Mexican under Uncategorized &#160;  As you can tell by reading the comments, my article on hybrids generated a ton of interest and comment. On top of the actual comments, we&#8217;ve had a bunch of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Posted by Angry New Mexican under Uncategorized &nbsp;  As you can tell by reading the comments, my article on hybrids generated a ton of interest and comment. On top of the actual comments, we&#8217;ve had a bunch of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scavenger</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9224</link>
		<dc:creator>Scavenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9224</guid>
		<description>MY VW TDI gets 50% more mpg than that dumb ,overpriced, tax subsidized in Canada,overhyped Prius.
So why is the Prius considered &quot;greener&quot; than my VW?
Shows you how the public just endlessly swallows the silly green proganda of the reactionary tree huggers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MY VW TDI gets 50% more mpg than that dumb ,overpriced, tax subsidized in Canada,overhyped Prius.<br />
So why is the Prius considered &#8220;greener&#8221; than my VW?<br />
Shows you how the public just endlessly swallows the silly green proganda of the reactionary tree huggers.</p>
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		<title>By: mfcarr</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9222</link>
		<dc:creator>mfcarr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9222</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested to hear your thoughts about what we will do with the following:
1.  All of the non-hybrid used cars being shipped to 3rd world countries without the same emissions standards.
2.  What we will do with all of the hybrid battery/fuel cells when they won&#039;t hold a charge any longer (happens with all rechargable batteries sooner or later)?
3.  What we will do with all of the bodies/shells of the hybrid cars when people decide they don&#039;t want to buy an $8-10k replacement battery or fuel cell since they typical American replaces a vehicle every 4-6 years anyway?

Enviromentally sound thinking or good marketing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested to hear your thoughts about what we will do with the following:<br />
1.  All of the non-hybrid used cars being shipped to 3rd world countries without the same emissions standards.<br />
2.  What we will do with all of the hybrid battery/fuel cells when they won&#8217;t hold a charge any longer (happens with all rechargable batteries sooner or later)?<br />
3.  What we will do with all of the bodies/shells of the hybrid cars when people decide they don&#8217;t want to buy an $8-10k replacement battery or fuel cell since they typical American replaces a vehicle every 4-6 years anyway?</p>
<p>Enviromentally sound thinking or good marketing?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Hurdle</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9221</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Hurdle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9221</guid>
		<description>&quot;So unless we assume that gas prices are going to head up significantly faster than the inflation rate,&quot;

But we *can* pretty safely assume that the price of gas will increase faster than inflation.  Low western-world birth rates are contributing to long-term low inflation, but oil and gas are finite resources that have growing demand so they absolutely will outpace inflation over the long-term, and might do so by quite a bit.

As for your thesis that hybrids make no economic sense, you are looking at it only from the perspective of an individual consumer.  In the area I live (Greater Victoria, British Columbia, Canada), a growing number (possibly now a majority, if my admittedly anecdotal experience is anything to go by).  I don&#039;t think those taxi companies are being duped economically, and I don&#039;t think they&#039;re doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, I think they&#039;re doing it based on solid numbers.  When you&#039;re driving a lot, and it&#039;s almost all stop-and-go city driving like taxis, hybrids pay for themselves over the operating life of the vehicle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So unless we assume that gas prices are going to head up significantly faster than the inflation rate,&#8221;</p>
<p>But we *can* pretty safely assume that the price of gas will increase faster than inflation.  Low western-world birth rates are contributing to long-term low inflation, but oil and gas are finite resources that have growing demand so they absolutely will outpace inflation over the long-term, and might do so by quite a bit.</p>
<p>As for your thesis that hybrids make no economic sense, you are looking at it only from the perspective of an individual consumer.  In the area I live (Greater Victoria, British Columbia, Canada), a growing number (possibly now a majority, if my admittedly anecdotal experience is anything to go by).  I don&#8217;t think those taxi companies are being duped economically, and I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, I think they&#8217;re doing it based on solid numbers.  When you&#8217;re driving a lot, and it&#8217;s almost all stop-and-go city driving like taxis, hybrids pay for themselves over the operating life of the vehicle.</p>
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		<title>By: Angry Overeducated  Catholic</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9220</link>
		<dc:creator>Angry Overeducated  Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9220</guid>
		<description>Sure, just like &quot;fair trade&quot; coffee: pass on $.05 extra to the farmer (if that) and jack up the retail price by $.50 - $1.00 (thanks &lt;a href=&quot;http://timharford.com/undercovereconomist/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tim&lt;/a&gt; Hartford for the analysis!).  One doesn&#039;t have to claim that there are no benefits to claim that the price hike outweighs the benefits!

Of course, some fair trade supporters argue that buying fair trade coffee still helps move the market to a better place, even if the final price is a bad bargain.  So, as AV points out, hybrid owners might be moving us towards better technologies.

But neither changes the issue of this article: hybrids make no economic sense!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, just like &#8220;fair trade&#8221; coffee: pass on $.05 extra to the farmer (if that) and jack up the retail price by $.50 &#8211; $1.00 (thanks <a href="http://timharford.com/undercovereconomist/" rel="nofollow">Tim</a> Hartford for the analysis!).  One doesn&#8217;t have to claim that there are no benefits to claim that the price hike outweighs the benefits!</p>
<p>Of course, some fair trade supporters argue that buying fair trade coffee still helps move the market to a better place, even if the final price is a bad bargain.  So, as AV points out, hybrid owners might be moving us towards better technologies.</p>
<p>But neither changes the issue of this article: hybrids make no economic sense!</p>
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		<title>By: nn647</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9219</link>
		<dc:creator>nn647</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9219</guid>
		<description>Well Well Well, we have finally begun to realise the ploy that environmental groups and others with financial ties to the &quot;green&quot; industry have been playing. The benefits of these products to the environment are minimal, but the financial gain to the companies who get business from people buying these products is much greater. If you think that half of the people and companies are releasing these products for environmental reason you would be very wrong. Global warming is more of a scam to get money from people who feel guilty for driving their SUV than anything else. Why are we funding their empires with so many government mandated programs that in turn have more externalities than benefits? Stop the world&#039;s greatest scam!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Well Well, we have finally begun to realise the ploy that environmental groups and others with financial ties to the &#8220;green&#8221; industry have been playing. The benefits of these products to the environment are minimal, but the financial gain to the companies who get business from people buying these products is much greater. If you think that half of the people and companies are releasing these products for environmental reason you would be very wrong. Global warming is more of a scam to get money from people who feel guilty for driving their SUV than anything else. Why are we funding their empires with so many government mandated programs that in turn have more externalities than benefits? Stop the world&#8217;s greatest scam!</p>
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		<title>By: Angry Overeducated  Catholic</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9218</link>
		<dc:creator>Angry Overeducated  Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9218</guid>
		<description>Well, I won&#039;t say that either Bush or Cheney pushed as hard as they could have for change, but Bush did highlight the need to transition more than once.  He got basically zero support from Congress, especially from the GOP.  As with his attempts to reform immigration (which he really pushed) and Social Security (which he put some effort into) he found that Congress had no interest.  

The GOP also got derailed into things like drilling in ANWR (which would never solve the underlying issue).  But, I agree, an opportunity lost, especially right after 9/11 when the nation would have easily backed a move away from &quot;the lifeblood of terrorism.&quot;


&lt;i&gt;Interestingly, this was attempted—the designs commonly used were civilian adaptations of US Navy designs. But it went off the rails somewhere.&lt;/i&gt;

I suspect part of the problem was the standard bid process.  Instead of having a single design and using it &lt;i&gt;without modification&lt;/i&gt;, once you start opening things to lowest bid and &quot;cost-cutting&quot; measures you may have proliferation of &quot;slight&quot; modifications.  

Normally that would be great, because you could then see which ones work well and which ones fail horribly.  But allowing nuclear plants to &quot;fail horribly&quot; seems unwise.  And even the actual case of many of them &quot;failing in small ways constantly&quot; pretty much destroyed the industry.  Perhaps the market for nuclear power plants was just too small to support a real market for designs?


&lt;i&gt;I don’t believe anyone ever thought the early plants would last as long as they did, either.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s certainly an excellent point.  We are basically still using the &quot;latest and greatest&quot; technology of the late 1950s and early 1960s...it&#039;s not surprising it shows its age!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I won&#8217;t say that either Bush or Cheney pushed as hard as they could have for change, but Bush did highlight the need to transition more than once.  He got basically zero support from Congress, especially from the GOP.  As with his attempts to reform immigration (which he really pushed) and Social Security (which he put some effort into) he found that Congress had no interest.  </p>
<p>The GOP also got derailed into things like drilling in ANWR (which would never solve the underlying issue).  But, I agree, an opportunity lost, especially right after 9/11 when the nation would have easily backed a move away from &#8220;the lifeblood of terrorism.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>Interestingly, this was attempted—the designs commonly used were civilian adaptations of US Navy designs. But it went off the rails somewhere.</i></p>
<p>I suspect part of the problem was the standard bid process.  Instead of having a single design and using it <i>without modification</i>, once you start opening things to lowest bid and &#8220;cost-cutting&#8221; measures you may have proliferation of &#8220;slight&#8221; modifications.  </p>
<p>Normally that would be great, because you could then see which ones work well and which ones fail horribly.  But allowing nuclear plants to &#8220;fail horribly&#8221; seems unwise.  And even the actual case of many of them &#8220;failing in small ways constantly&#8221; pretty much destroyed the industry.  Perhaps the market for nuclear power plants was just too small to support a real market for designs?</p>
<p><i>I don’t believe anyone ever thought the early plants would last as long as they did, either.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s certainly an excellent point.  We are basically still using the &#8220;latest and greatest&#8221; technology of the late 1950s and early 1960s&#8230;it&#8217;s not surprising it shows its age!</p>
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		<title>By: mildlypiquedacademician</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9215</link>
		<dc:creator>mildlypiquedacademician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9215</guid>
		<description>AOC wrote:

&lt;em&gt;While I’m no fan of the French overall&lt;/em&gt;

Now &lt;em&gt;that&#039;s&lt;/em&gt; an understatement. :)


&lt;em&gt;Personally, I agree with many that the US needs a sort of “New Manhattan Project” to explore a long-term solution to energy needs.&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;ve long said this. In fact I recall saying this to AOC (and others) sometime around 2001. It&#039;s another of those &quot;Nixon goes to China&quot; moments squandered: An administration of two oil men, two conservatives, etc.---they could have stood up and said &quot;we&#039;ve got to change.&quot; It didn&#039;t happen. Why exactly is, doubtless complex, involving political weakness of the 2000 election and a desire to do the popular thing to be re-elected, varying priorities, fear of NIMBYism, but also a distinct lack of vision. 

People like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rmi.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amory Lovins&lt;/a&gt; largely think government is simply not going to do what needs to be done and I suppose he might well be right. 



&lt;em&gt;In particular, there should be one design replicated everywhere, rather than the incredible number of “slightly” different designs which make maintenance and training a nightmare currently.&lt;/em&gt;

Interestingly, this was attempted---the designs commonly used were civilian adaptations of US Navy designs. But it went off the rails somewhere. I don&#039;t believe anyone ever thought the early plants would last as long as they did, either. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AOC wrote:</p>
<p><em>While I’m no fan of the French overall</em></p>
<p>Now <em>that&#8217;s</em> an understatement. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><em>Personally, I agree with many that the US needs a sort of “New Manhattan Project” to explore a long-term solution to energy needs.</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long said this. In fact I recall saying this to AOC (and others) sometime around 2001. It&#8217;s another of those &#8220;Nixon goes to China&#8221; moments squandered: An administration of two oil men, two conservatives, etc.&#8212;they could have stood up and said &#8220;we&#8217;ve got to change.&#8221; It didn&#8217;t happen. Why exactly is, doubtless complex, involving political weakness of the 2000 election and a desire to do the popular thing to be re-elected, varying priorities, fear of NIMBYism, but also a distinct lack of vision. </p>
<p>People like <a href="http://www.rmi.org/" rel="nofollow">Amory Lovins</a> largely think government is simply not going to do what needs to be done and I suppose he might well be right. </p>
<p><em>In particular, there should be one design replicated everywhere, rather than the incredible number of “slightly” different designs which make maintenance and training a nightmare currently.</em></p>
<p>Interestingly, this was attempted&#8212;the designs commonly used were civilian adaptations of US Navy designs. But it went off the rails somewhere. I don&#8217;t believe anyone ever thought the early plants would last as long as they did, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Angry Overeducated  Catholic</title>
		<link>http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/simple-math-why-not-to-buy-a-hybrid/#comment-9214</link>
		<dc:creator>Angry Overeducated  Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 23:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://12angrymen.wordpress.com/?p=399#comment-9214</guid>
		<description>While I&#039;m no fan of the French overall, their track record for acting rationally in what they believe to be their self-interest is justly renowned.  And their power generation policy is a great example of that.

Personally, I agree with many that the US needs a sort of &quot;New Manhattan Project&quot; to explore a long-term solution to energy needs.  This should include developing viable replacements for the internal combustion engine and for current 100+ megawatt oil or coal power plants.

As a critical part of this, and to move immediately away from an oil- and coal-based power economy, we need to design and build nuclear plants according to a proven, tested, and refined design using modern technology and quality assurance methods.  In particular, there should be one design replicated everywhere, rather than the incredible number of &quot;slightly&quot; different designs which make maintenance and training a nightmare currently.

As the U.S. Navy shows, it is perfectly possible to operate large numbers of nuclear fission plants for many years without accidents---as long as the plants and personnel are focused equally on safety and reliability!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;m no fan of the French overall, their track record for acting rationally in what they believe to be their self-interest is justly renowned.  And their power generation policy is a great example of that.</p>
<p>Personally, I agree with many that the US needs a sort of &#8220;New Manhattan Project&#8221; to explore a long-term solution to energy needs.  This should include developing viable replacements for the internal combustion engine and for current 100+ megawatt oil or coal power plants.</p>
<p>As a critical part of this, and to move immediately away from an oil- and coal-based power economy, we need to design and build nuclear plants according to a proven, tested, and refined design using modern technology and quality assurance methods.  In particular, there should be one design replicated everywhere, rather than the incredible number of &#8220;slightly&#8221; different designs which make maintenance and training a nightmare currently.</p>
<p>As the U.S. Navy shows, it is perfectly possible to operate large numbers of nuclear fission plants for many years without accidents&#8212;as long as the plants and personnel are focused equally on safety and reliability!</p>
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